FIX THIS RULE! (please)

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

OK, that's fine. If that's the rule, then please make the change so it's reflected in the rules document. Perhaps something like this:

"'About to receive the ball’ shall refer to any instance where a catchable ball arrives immediately before, at the same time, or immediately after the base runner reaches home plate. ‘General vicinity’ shall mean within a couple feet of the plate.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

sixofdiamonds wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:37 pm ‘General vicinity’ shall mean within a couple feet of the plate.

The catchable argument was brought up by the umpire who made the call. I think what he meant by that was the ball wasn't in the vicinity. That's all. I think you're splitting hairs here. Catchable is stated nowhere in the rule. The umpire merely misspoke.
LOL. LES. You were the one that said if a ball isn't catchable, then there should be no call. That's fine, but that's not what the rule says. Also, "in the vicinity" refers to the FIELDER, not the ball.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

I was merely defending the umpire who used the argument not catchable. Geez, Bob. Lighten up.

I still don't know what it is your'e looking for. What in your mind about this rule do you want me to change? What would make you happy?
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

Bob, here is your original post to open the thread.
If we can't apply this rule consistently, we need to figure out another option. Why not use USA Softball rules for this instead of trying to make up our own, which don't seem to be applied anyway? Can we please look into this over the winter?
I've addressed your concerns? What more do you want?
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

So I get that you're not going to eliminate the rule. That's fine. Please add the wording to the rule that explicitly states the ball must be catchable, and then I guess we have to define what "catchable" means. You already promised to make sure umpires are aware of the rule and the importance of applying it consistently, so I appreciate that.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

sixofdiamonds wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:45 pm Geez, Bob. Lighten up.
I am lightened up! I said LOL.
jstepo32
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jstepo32 »

thanks for making sure all umpires are on the same page Les!
Geno8121
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Geno8121 »

Go Cheap Outs!!!! Safety first fellas :)
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jlp42885
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jlp42885 »

Bob, a good rule of thumb for catchers is to stand out of the base path. I've played a fair bit catcher during my tenure on Sunday mornings and generally when a ball is put I take a few steps in front of the plate, until I receive the ball, then step inline with the base path to make a tag. And when I say "in front of the plate", I mean towards the pitcher's mound and NOT TOWARDS 3rd. See link: http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/27863 ... -tag-1.gif
This is a good practice because it keeps the catcher out of harms way (for the most part) and makes the slide/surrender rule more evident. If the catcher does not possess the ball, he/she should not be in danger of getting lit up.
I am in favor of leaving the "catchable ball" aspect of the rule in place because if all catchers league wide use the same practices I use, then they wont be in harms way, and it would minimize "Cheap outs" because the slide/surrender rule would be a lot more evident.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

Looks like the catcher is still in the vicinity as defined by our rule, so, other than a good suggestion to keep the catcher safe, I don't see how this works into our conversation. In my original scenario I posted about last Sunday, the catcher was, in fact, in front of the plate, and only stepped on the plate after she received the ball.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

On a side note, I wish that GIF you posted showed the umpire's call. IMHO, I think the runner was safe, due to the catcher tagging him with his empty glove (the ball was in his hand and it doesn't look like he tug him with his hand).
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jlp42885
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jlp42885 »

Keeping the catcher safe is the reason for the rule and the most important factor of this discussion. throw out safe, or out, or "cheap out", or "catchable", etc. The most important part is player safety.
Its completely asinine that you want to eliminate the "catchable ball" factor tho. If the runner going home see that the ball is offline why should he/she be forced to slide/surrender? I've see players in unfortunate scenarios that have hurt themselves by sliding or trying to hold the plate. Why should they be forced to take that risk if there isn't really a play?!!
Play smart and you can minimize injuries. Play smart and you can make true slide/surrender scenarios more obvious.
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jlp42885
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jlp42885 »

BTW it looks like the catcher in the gif tagged the runner with both hands, the glove in one and the ball in the other, on the left shoulder. From this view I'd be inclined to believe the runner is out.
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jlp42885
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jlp42885 »

One other point Bob... I know I'm crossing sports here, but take Pass Interference in football. There is no penalty if the ball is uncatchable. The ball has to be catchable in order for the flag to be thrown.
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Geno8121 »

Question... this is just a fun side not... do you think more people have been hurt in collisions at home plate or trying to hold home plate. I personally think the sliding on fields like LUKENS 3 Or the Quarrys Merca Mat have caused more injuries than collisions but I'd like to hear from the field.
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Joestheman »

I haven't seen a player injured from sliding or holding. Plenty of skinned knees, but never saw a player come out of a game or get loaded into an ambulance. It may have happened, but I've never seen it. In my long career, the sliding injuries I've seen happened when the runner was reluctant to go down, late decision, hits the ground awkwardly.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

Geno8121 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:09 am Question... this is just a fun side not... do you think more people have been hurt in collisions at home plate or trying to hold home plate. I personally think the sliding on fields like LUKENS 3 Or the Quarrys Merca Mat have caused more injuries than collisions but I'd like to hear from the field.
Good point. Probably not, but here's a situation that happened to me once: I'm fat, old, and slow. I bat last in the lineup. Troy, the leadoff guy, is a 20-something kid that runs a 4.40 40. I'm on first and he hits a gapper. I chug from first to home as fast as I can, and he catches up to me as I'm rounding third. I peek towards right field and see the 2nd baseman about to throw home, so I hold the plate as the ball, Troy, the catcher, and me all arrive at the same time, creating a pileup that almost killed all of us.

But, that's anecdotal. I doubt that it's creating more injuries overall.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

jlp42885 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:36 am One other point Bob... I know I'm crossing sports here, but take Pass Interference in football. There is no penalty if the ball is uncatchable. The ball has to be catchable in order for the flag to be thrown.
I'm OK with changing the rule to say that the ball has to be catchable. That's not in the rule now, but that's what some umpires are saying.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

jlp42885 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:31 am Its completely asinine that you want to eliminate the "catchable ball" factor tho.
I never said I wanted to eliminate it. I'm saying it's not in the rule so it shouldn't be a factor. If Les wants to put it in the rule, then I'm fine with that, he should do it, otherwise, umpires should adhere to the rule as it's written.
MikeY
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by MikeY »

blouderback wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 am
jlp42885 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:31 am Its completely asinine that you want to eliminate the "catchable ball" factor tho.
I never said I wanted to eliminate it. I'm saying it's not in the rule so it shouldn't be a factor. If Les wants to put it in the rule, then I'm fine with that, he should do it, otherwise, umpires should adhere to the rule as it's written.
I don't see a reason for it to be added. In the first & second sentences of the rule it says the rule applies when there is "a play at the plate". If the ball isn't catchable for whatever reason, then there is no play at the plate so the rule just doesn't apply.

It's just like the pass interference rule that Jeff brought up. If the pass isn't catchable, then there's nothing to interfere with and therefore, no penalty. If the ball thrown from a fielder to the catcher isn't catchable, then the base runner doesn't have a play to run though so the rule doesn't apply to the situation.
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