FIX THIS RULE! (please)

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latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:32 pm "'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’."

And I know you do not believe that a ball headed to the parking lot is being received by the catcher. The only thing the catcher should care about at that moment is:

1. Who's car or person is about to get hit (scream 'heads up')
2. Can I 'receive' a new ball from blue

Sorry, it just doesn't line up with the rule.
K Rock
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by K Rock »

Thanks Les. I agree that the rule shouldn't be changed and just more of a consistent interpretation from the umps and the definition that was laid out earlier is fair. I agree with you and Joe that if it isn't in vicinity of the plate it shouldn't be an automatic out if they don't slide or surrender. I appreciate the reminder to both new and veteran umps.
Joestheman
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Joestheman »

If I called a guy out for not sliding on a ball thrown over the backstop, the person's safety I'd be most concerned about would be me.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

So, the catcher is waiting "in the vicinity" of the plate for a throw. The runner is coming into home. The ball sails over the catcher's head at the same time the runner crosses the plate. Or maybe the throw is just a little off target, maybe so much so that the catcher can't catch it. Are you telling me that there's no danger to the catcher or runner, and the catcher should have ample time to get out of the way?

P.S. I'm not talking about a throw that's 10 feet up the 1st base line, as Les suggested. The rule DOES state that the ball needs to "arrive" immediately before, after, or at the same time as the runner. A ball thrown 10' down the 1st base line never "arrives". A ball "in the vicinity" "arrives" at home plate, even though it may not be catchable.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

latincontrol wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:45 pm
blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:32 pm "'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’."

And I know you do not believe that a ball headed to the parking lot is being received by the catcher. The only thing the catcher should care about at that moment is:

1. Who's car or person is about to get hit (scream 'heads up')
2. Can I 'receive' a new ball from blue

Sorry, it just doesn't line up with the rule.

ABOUT to receive. NOT received.
MikeY
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by MikeY »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:01 pm
latincontrol wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:45 pm
blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:32 pm "'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’."

And I know you do not believe that a ball headed to the parking lot is being received by the catcher. The only thing the catcher should care about at that moment is:

1. Who's car or person is about to get hit (scream 'heads up')
2. Can I 'receive' a new ball from blue

Sorry, it just doesn't line up with the rule.

ABOUT to receive. NOT received.

The argument that Ben is making that a ball 10' above the catcher's head is not about to be received.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

I don't care about the ball. The rule states that the FIELDER is there, about to receive the ball.
MikeY
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by MikeY »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:12 pm I don't care about the ball. The rule states that the FIELDER is there, about to receive the ball.
The location of the ball is the determining factor. A fielder who is ready to receive a ball and a fielder who is about to receive a ball are two very different things.

You can be standing there ready to receive it and it's thrown 10' over your head. In that scenario, you're not about to receive it because it's not coming to you.
Joestheman
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Joestheman »

This debate raged when the rule was first implemented. Every argument here has been presented, and then some. It took about two years for the players to adjust. Now you hardly hear a peep. Is the call ever missed? Sure it is, much like any other play. He trapped it. He beat it. That was fair. That was foul. That was a strike. That was a ball. I tagged him. He missed me. Did I leave any out?
latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:00 pm So, the catcher is waiting "in the vicinity" of the plate for a throw. The runner is coming into home. The ball sails over the catcher's head at the same time the runner crosses the plate. Or maybe the throw is just a little off target, maybe so much so that the catcher can't catch it. Are you telling me that there's no danger to the catcher or runner, and the catcher should have ample time to get out of the way?

P.S. I'm not talking about a throw that's 10 feet up the 1st base line, as Les suggested. The rule DOES state that the ball needs to "arrive" immediately before, after, or at the same time as the runner. A ball thrown 10' down the 1st base line never "arrives". A ball "in the vicinity" "arrives" at home plate, even though it may not be catchable.
But this is exactly why I did this exercise with you. So we can spell out what uncatchable means. Earlier you said, even a ball sailed way over the catchers head into the parking lot that it should should be called. Now on this post you are saying no.

So now that we have gone full circle, (this was my intention) now the question in this point is valid. Yes, correct. As an umpire I am not there to determine if a ball in the vicinity would have been caught. I could care less at this point. At the point of vicinity...did the runner COMPLETELY hold or surrender. If yes, SAFE. If not, OUT. My safe or out call is NOT dependent on whether or not the ball in the vicinity was or should have been caught. A ball in the vicinity of the play will be considered a playable, live ball...period.

Of course then there is the actual play being made. A catcher has the ball and tags a runner attempting to hold or surrendering before touching the plate, then obviously it's an out on the tag.

But I needed you to really see the clarity of what 'in the vicinity' really meant. And to how I started this, Les' original mention of uncatchable was an exaggerated statement, in the event someone tried to define the rule as you started to. Not to mention, this loop-de-loop we just did is now in writing should someone else decide to define a missile thrown to another county being in the vicinity just because of intent to throw someone out at the plate.

The shenanigans is now in writing and hopefully not argued.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

Here is the rule...
Umpires will call base runners out if they fail to slide or surrender when there is a play at the plate. 'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’ in the ‘general vicinity’ of home plate. ‘About to receive the ball’ shall refer to any instance where the ball arrives immediately before, at the same time, or immediately after the base runner reaches home plate. ‘General vicinity’ shall mean within a couple feet of the plate.
With all due respect, I don't understand what it is you guys continue to lobby for. I made the effort to get all the umpires on the same page. Safety is my utmost concern. Cheap outs are a secondary concern. Since the inception of the Slide or Surrender rule 15 or so years ago, I can only think of 1 instance where a player was slightly hurt on a collision at home plate. Before the rule, collisions happened quite frequently. I remember an instance involving Joe Desousa at home plate. I'm sure he remembers it all too well. It was a miracle he survived that collision in one piece. That collision gave birth to the Slide or Surrender rule. The rule is sound. I concede it needs to be interpreted in a more consistent manner, but the rule is sound. What more do you want? Come up with a better mousetrap and I'm all ears.

I could do away with the rule altogether. Heck, it would certainly make my life a lot easier, but I wouldn't sleep all that well at night. I put up with the nonsense it because it is worth it. We all have to get up for work the next morning.

Please don't suggest to me the commit line where there are 2 home plates and a play at the plate becomes a force play. One of the most exciting plays in baseball/softball is the play at home plate. I won't take that away. The Slide or Surrender rule, if called consistently and in accordance with its intent, gives us the best of all worlds - safety, no cheap outs, and the opportunity for an exciting play at the plate.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

Please show me in the rule where it states that the ball needs to be in the vicinity of home plate. Let me save you some time, It doesn't. As far as location, it only talks about the FIELDER being in the vicinity of the plate, and TIMING of when the ball arrives.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

Ben, A throw 10' up 1st base line is NOT arriving at home plate. An "uncatchable" ball 2 or 3 feet off target, or even 5 feet over the catcher's head, still DOES arrive at home plate. Please take the "catachable" argument out of it, the rule says nothing about the ball being catchable or not.
latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

Joestheman wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:17 pm This debate raged when the rule was first implemented. Every argument here has been presented, and then some. It took about two years for the players to adjust. Now you hardly hear a peep. Is the call ever missed? Sure it is, much like any other play. He trapped it. He beat it. That was fair. That was foul. That was a strike. That was a ball. I tagged him. He missed me. Did I leave any out?
'You suck blue.'

Can't believe you left that one out.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

Bob, read the rule. I just posted it above. Here I'll post it again in its entirety.
• SLIDE OR SURRENDER: PLAY AT THE PLATE - Umpires will call base runners out if they fail to slide or surrender when there is a play at the plate. 'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’ in the ‘general vicinity’ of home plate. ‘About to receive the ball’ shall refer to any instance where the ball arrives immediately before, at the same time, or immediately after the base runner reaches home plate. ‘General vicinity’ shall mean within a couple feet of the plate. 'Surrender' shall be described as slowing down to the point where the runner can 'hold the plate' without contacting the fielder. ‘Holding the plate’ shall mean being able to keep at least one foot on the plate without any overrun. If, during a ‘play at the plate’ the runner fails to slide or ‘hold the plate’ when not sliding, the runner will be immediately called out regardless of whether contact was, or was not, made with the fielder. ‘Play at the plate’, ‘about to receive the ball’, and ‘general vicinity’ shall remain judgment decisions by the umpire. Every effort will be made to ensure all umpires call the play in accordance with the guidelines as set forth above and on as consistent a basis as possible. Judgment calls are not grounds for protest. Incessant arguing of judgment calls shall remain grounds for ejection. PLAY AT 2ND OR 3RD BASE - Because base runners naturally slow down (surrender) when running to 2nd or 3rd base so as to not overrun the bag, being called out for failure to slide will be based on the current ASA 'if contact is made' guidelines. However, any base runner that fails to slide or get out of the way on a double play will be immediately called out and the double play automatically awarded.
Joestheman
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Joestheman »

Would've been easier. Covers them all.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

Thanks for re-posting the rule, Les. I still don't see ANYTHING about the ball being "catchable", nor do I see anything that states that the BALL" needs to be "in the vicinity".
MikeY
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by MikeY »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:31 pm Thanks for re-posting the rule, Les. I still don't see ANYTHING about the ball being "catchable", nor do I see anything that states that the BALL" needs to be "in the vicinity".
If the ball isn't catch-able, then the fielder isn't about to receive it. Therefore, there's no play to be made at the plate and the rule doesn't even apply to the situation.
latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

:? "confused shoulder shrug"
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

‘General vicinity’ shall mean within a couple feet of the plate.

The catchable argument was brought up by the umpire who made the call. I think what he meant by that was the ball wasn't in the vicinity. That's all. I think you're splitting hairs here. Catchable is stated nowhere in the rule. The umpire merely misspoke.
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