FIX THIS RULE! (please)

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blouderback
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FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

Once again, the "must hold the plate" rule was not applied properly IMHO. Yesterday afternoon, a runner was coming in to home, and I, after taking a throw at first base, fired the ball home. The ball and the runner arrived at the plate at just about the same time. No tag was attempted, and it was not a force play. The catcher had her foot on the plate, so she was definitely "in the vicinity". The runner slowed somewhat, but absolutely did NOT hold the plate. In fact, he took at least 3 steps after stepping on the plate.

The runner was safe, and when I pointed out that the runner didn't hold the plate, I was told there was no play at home. While I realize it's up to the umpire's discretion as to whether or not there is a play, the rule states:

"'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’ in the ‘general vicinity’ of home plate. ‘About to receive the ball’ shall refer to any instance where the ball arrives immediately before, at the same time, or immediately after the base runner reaches home plate. ‘General vicinity’ shall mean within a couple feet of the plate. 'Surrender' shall be described as slowing down to the point where the runner can 'hold the plate' without contacting the fielder."

If we can't apply this rule consistently, we need to figure out another option. Why not use USA Softball rules for this instead of trying to make up our own, which don't seem to be applied anyway? Can we please look into this over the winter?

Respectfully,
-Bob
K Rock
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by K Rock »

I totally agree as I have seen a lot of inconsistencies with this rule. It also occurred on Wednesday night championship game at Hatfield (Joe, Dave and I believe the other ump was TJ?). I was catching with a play at the home and it wasn't a force. The throw came in and went off my glove and the runner didn't slide, surrender or slow down. It would have been a bang-bang play and if I'm honest the runner probably would have been safe. Initial reason I was given on why the runner was safe was because I didn't catch the ball, if I catch it I was told he would have been out because of the rule.

My understanding of the rule and why it is implemented was for safety reasons and is to avoid any collisions at the plate for the catcher and the runner. According to the rule outlined from Bob above the runner should've definitely been out.

I would just like this ruled followed with some consistency for safety purposes which is why the rule was implemented.

Kevin
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jstepo32 »

While i cant contribute to the above posts i do ask the question. Is it true if the catcher fails to catch the ball even though it hits their glove and the runner doesn't slide or hold the bag are they considered safe? We had a play yesterday where the pitcher threw it home and the catcher had it in their glove but lost it quickly as he was trying to swipe at the runner who did not slide or hold the bag. The umpire said he would have been called out if our catcher caught the ball and held onto it. I'm not sure who the umpire is since i haven't played many games at Doyle except for the fall but he is a solid guy and quickly has become one of my favorite umpires in the league.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

There is a fine line between applying the rule for safety's sake and issuing cheap outs. If there is a play at the plate, whether the catcher catches the ball or not and the runner does not slide, hold the plate, or surrender, the runner should be called out for safety's sake. If the ball is not 'catchable' or not in the vicinity of home plate or the runner is well past the plate, there should be no call.

We have quite a few beginner umpires this year. Moving forward, I will make it my business to ensure that each and every umpire is on the same page or at least as close to the same page as possible. Remember, no 2 umpires will call a game EXACTLY the same way. As long as there is a semblance of consistency across the board, everyone should be happy... or at least a little less unhappy.

The rule is fine as it is. There will be no amendments forthcoming. Umpire interpretation of the rule may need fixing, but the rule itself is not broken.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

The umpires I've seen not apply the rule properly are ones that have been here for years, so please make sure to emphasize the rule to all umpires.

There should be three questions answered:
1. Did the ball arrive immediately before, after, or at the same time the runner touched the plate
2. Was the catcher (NOT THE BALL) in the vicinity of home plate
3. Did the runner slide or hold the plate.

Les, with all due respect, you even apply the rule incorrectly, stating that if the ball is not "catchable" then the rule doesn't apply. Whether or not it's "catchable" has nothing to do with the rule. It matters where the catcher is standing ("in the general vicinity of home plate"), and when the ball arrives. If the catcher is waiting at home for a throw, and the throw is 5 feet over her head (therefore not "catchable"), the rule DEFINITELY needs to apply, since this is a dangerous situation for the catcher.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

We can agree to disagree, Bob. If the catcher is standing there and the throw is 10' up the 1B line, there should be no call. Catchers have no business standing near the plate when the throw is nowhere near them ('uncatchable').

All umpires, new and veteran alike, have been informed of the need to get on the same page.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

So the first baseman has the ball and is ready to throw home, where should the catcher stand?
latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

Thank you Les for the post.

As an umpire, I do ask all league managers and players alike to please communicate this to your players. Cooperation from managers and players are needed for those who do muddy the rule looking for the cheap outs.

I have found that the majority of the time folks are not displeased with the rule...because the "non-call" posed a safety issue, but rather players on defense trying to get any out they can get regardless of sloppy play. I wish I would see an argument on this rule based on seeing someone potentially getting hurt. Majority of the time, it isn't the case. However, a rule is a rule.

Let's all work together and continue enjoying the game.
latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:56 am So the first baseman has the ball and is ready to throw home, where should the catcher stand?
Bob I think we are nick picking here. The catcher can stand at the plate area waiting to receive a throw. To Les' point, if the throw is them sailing waaaaay off the play, the catcher obviously can see that. Catcher then has no business on the plate when there is obviously no play to be made. The rule clarification for everyone is now saying, balls coming, catcher is ready to receive, runner is on the way; runner holds or surrenders. Otherwise out.

Ball is literally nowhere near the play, not catchable. No play, no call.

It was an exaggerated statement to stress the rule clarification.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

So the first baseman has the ball and is ready to throw home, where should the catcher stand?
The catcher should be near the plate ready to catch the ball and make the play, of course. But, if the runner is at or near the plate and the first basemen is only ready to throw the ball, that is not considered a play at the plate. The ball has to be in the vicinity of the home plate, not in the first baseman's mitt.
MikeY
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by MikeY »

sixofdiamonds wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:25 am If there is a play at the plate, whether the catcher catches the ball or not and the runner does not slide, hold the plate, or surrender, the runner should be called out for safety's sake.
I feel like calling the rule this way could get dicey because it would be much easier for a catcher to just not catch the ball and get the auto-out rather than try to catch it and apply a tag for an out.
Joestheman
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Joestheman »

It's impossible to offer an opinion on a play being described in print. I was present at the second one described above, front row seat. Blue asked my opinion between innings and I gave it. I was more unhappy with the explanation given, about the ball not being caught. As mentioned, this involved a first year ump. I've seen him make mistakes and learn from them. Hard to ask for more. The rule itself: The ASA version often involved two calls; one on the runner followed by dialing 911. I've been in the league a while and have seen this multiple times. That second call has all but been eliminated. Priorities.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

I couldn't agree more, Joe. The ASA version needs 2 calls - the one at the plate then 911.
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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds »

If there is a play at the plate, whether the catcher catches the ball or not and the runner does not slide, hold the plate, or surrender, the runner should be called out for safety's sake.
I feel like calling the rule this way could get dicey because it would be much easier for a catcher to just not catch the ball and get the auto-out rather than try to catch it and apply a tag for an out.
If the runner does not slide, surrender, or hold the plate when there is a play at the plate with a catchable ball in the vicinity, the runner will be called out whether the catcher catches the ball and misses the tag or decides not to catch the ball at all. Unless I am misunderstanding your point, I don't see where it can get dicey.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

I think the fact the the ball is not catchable has no bearing on the rule being enforced. The catcher is in the vicinity at the time the ball and the player arrive. The runner needs to slide or surrender, regardless of the ball being catchable. The rule doesn't say anything about the ball being catchable, and it shouldn't. We're trying to protect the catcher (and the runner), so it shouldn't matter if its not catchable.
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:30 pm I think the fact the the ball is not catchable has no bearing on the rule being enforced. The catcher is in the vicinity at the time the ball and the player arrive. The runner needs to slide or surrender, regardless of the ball being catchable. The rule doesn't say anything about the ball being catchable, and it shouldn't. We're trying to protect the catcher (and the runner), so it shouldn't matter if its not catchable.
So let's use the same scenario you started this thread with. Just bare with me and let's ride your logic out.

Runner just rounded third and you just caught the ball at first for the force out. Runner decides I'm going for it. Catcher starts screaming to you to throw him/her the ball. You then throw the ball, but you sail the ball 10 feet over the catchers head and it goes into the parking lot. Your reasoning is, for us to still call the runner out if he/she runs through the plate and does not surrender?
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by Joestheman »

<<making popcorn
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

Yes. We're trying to protect the catcher and the runner. The catcher is in the vicinity of the plate. The play is happening. The catcher and runner are in close proximity of each other. Having the ball sail into the parking lot doesn't matter.
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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback »

"'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’."
latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol »

blouderback wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:30 pm Yes. We're trying to protect the catcher and the runner. The catcher is in the vicinity of the plate. The play is happening. The catcher and runner are in close proximity of each other. Having the ball sail into the parking lot doesn't matter.
Oh boy. No way that's gonna happen. Come on, I was expecting a different answer. I think the clarification is now clear. You launching a ball into the parking lot or 10 feet up either line is not in the 'vicinity' of the play nor for the absolute majority play into safety concerns. Safety is an unprotected catcher fielding a throw getting smashed or a jerk not sliding and trying to take out a catcher on same scenario. This is the only scenario of an un-catch able ball. Let's not water down the game to t-ball.

Honestly, this would fall into 'cheap outs.' Why don't we just have every fielder throw rainbows all over the field and just because the ball was launched the runners are out. (Sarcasm intended)
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