FIX THIS RULE! (please)

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jlp42885
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jlp42885 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:55 am

I think perhaps my injuries form slide/surrendering may have been somewhat misinterpreted. I think the majority of people in the league are reluctant to slide if they don't have to, perhaps to avoid scrapes/minor injuries, getting dirty, whatever the case may be. And I have seen a couple of injuries form surrendering/holding the plate, ie pulled hamstrings, sprained knees and others of the sort.
There is no sense in sliding/surrendering/holding if there isn't really a play at the plate. that's all i was trying to say there.

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:37 pm

I guess what I'm trying to say is, most of the time the runner makes up his/her mind to slide/surrender before the ball is even thrown. For example, in the scenario I posted above about having to chug all the way from 1st to home one time, I looked at where the fielder was and the fact that he was about to throw the ball, and it was THEN that I decided that I'd have to hold the plate (I try not to slide if I don't have to). At that moment, I disregarded where the ball was, I didn't care if it was catchable, I simply put my head down and ran home and stopped on the plate as fast as I could. I had no idea where the ball was.

Even worse, let's say the ball is coming in from the 3rd base/left field side of the diamond. Are you suggesting I should look backwards, find the ball, determine if it's "catchable" and then decide if I need to slide/surrender? That seems fairly impossible, and requiring the runner to determine if the ball is catchable is unrealistic IMHO.

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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:11 pm

All anyone has to do is read the catcher's eyes and body language. If the ball is coming in, the catcher's eyes and motions will tell you all you need to know.

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jlp42885
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by jlp42885 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:20 pm

Les is correct. Use commons sense here. Look to see where the catcher is... Listen for your teammates yelling, "Slide", "Down", etc. There are several other ways you can determine if the ball is catchable without having your attention diverted.

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:54 pm

That's fine, please just change the rule so that everyone knows that the ball must be "catchable", and then I guess we have to define what THAT means.

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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:46 am

Bob, I'm going to dig down deep and summon as many of the brain cells I have left so I can explain the wording in a manner that helps you get a better grasp on the Slide or Surrender rule. Let's break the rule into 3 parts.

Part 1) 'Play at the plate' shall refer to any instance where a fielder is ‘about to receive the ball’ in the ‘general vicinity’ of home plate.
Part 2) ‘About to receive the ball’ shall refer to any instance where the ball arrives immediately before, at the same time, or immediately after the base runner reaches home plate.
Part 3) ‘General vicinity’ shall mean within a couple feet of the plate.

If a catcher is about to receive the ball (Part 1) which is defined as a very small window of opportunity in Part 2 in a very limited area (Part 3), the only conclusion one can make is the ball and the catcher must be very near the plate with a base runner right there not sliding or surrendering. Then and only then should the umpire make the Slide or Surrender call. If the catcher is nowhere near the plate and the throw comes into the general vicinity of home plate as the runner is crossing the plate, there should be no call. By the same token, if the catcher is in the general vicinity of home plate and the throw is either nowhere near the plate or not made at all, there should be no call.

I think you lost your way with the rule when you assumed 'general vicinity' was referring to only the catcher. General vicinity refers to both the catcher and the ball. The rule should not apply if one of the 2 is missing on the play. If the ball is thrown away from the plate and out of the reach of the catcher, for all intents and purposes the ball is not catchable.

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:57 am

Respectfully, we're trying to protect the catcher and the runner. Why would we care where the ball is? If the catcher is "in the vicinity" of the plate, and has a right to be "in the vicinity" (not blocking it), then the rule should apply regardless if the ball is catchable or not. This is how the rule is currently written.

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sixofdiamonds
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by sixofdiamonds » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:08 am

I give up.

MikeY
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by MikeY » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:29 am

blouderback wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:57 am
Respectfully, we're trying to protect the catcher and the runner. Why would we care where the ball is? If the catcher is "in the vicinity" of the plate, and has a right to be "in the vicinity" (not blocking it), then the rule should apply regardless if the ball is catchable or not. This is how the rule is currently written.
Because if we didn't care about the location of the ball...any time a runner is approaching home plate, the fielder would just be able whip an errant throw in the general direction of the plate and if the runner doesn't slide or stop, they are out whether there is any semblance of a play to be made or not. That is absolutely crazy and would result in way more arguments than the current rule does.

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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:33 am

Bob, the path you are heading in there will be a sub-rule to every rule and an amendment of some kind to answer just about every detail of the rule.

At the end of it all...unless you are 100000% certain of there being no play, slide or surrender. This works beautifully for every team I manage. Just don't flirt with interpretation of rules or take chances. I tell my team, 'talk to each other and if there is even the slightest minute chance of a play, get dirty or surrender'. Or have a good 3rd base coach to know when to send and stop players. Coaching has just as much a part to play in all this. My teams know that running through the plate is basically done. It's one or the other.

And on top of it, I always keep a player or two near the gate entrances to the plate to communicate with players saying get down, hold, or your good. Let's not eliminate the responsibilities of managers, coaches and players themselves to adjust. Any runner running through the plate with this rule should be told going into 2019 knowing they are taking major risk. No matter how many times we rewrite the rule, this risk will exist.

What makes this game beautiful is the thinking aspect, the common sense aspect, the taking chances/risks, the competition and just not knowing what will happen next. The clutch hit, the clutch out, umpires making sometimes dramatic and game-saving/changing/altering calls. There are so many aspects of the game that are left to human effort and competition/judgements.

If we go this route trying to define everything to a 'T' then we are flirting with cheap outs and a robotic type of game.

No disrespect, but the rule is clear. If there is a play, get dirty or surrender. The rule should only protect when there is the beauty of bang-bang plays that can cause harm. Teach yourself or other runners...that even a chance of a play at the plate, to always be prepared to get down or hold the plate. That's our game at SBA, it is what it is. All of this wording is not going to change how the game is called now that clarification has been given to us, the umpires.

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:48 am

sixofdiamonds wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:08 am
I give up.
Don't give up! Just add the word "catchable" to the rule as I suggested a while back.

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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blueeyed104 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:22 pm

Oh my god, I am getting a headache!

Bob - why is the word "catchable" so important to you? The rule is very clear and it seems you are the only one bitching about it. There have been MULTIPLE people trying to break it down for you but to no avail it's not clicking. Adding the word "catchable" is not going to fix anything.

The only point that I do agree with you on is that all umpires are not consistent with the rule, which Les stated he will inform the umpires. That is all that needs to be said. Not a 4 page back and forth BS.

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:35 pm

I just want the rule to be more clear, because I feel that umpires are not applying it consistently. Some people say the ball has to be catchable, some say not. I don't care that much either way, let's just make the rule clear.

P.S. Kristen, it's not BS.

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:40 pm

IMHO, the fact that the ball must be catchable is moot. If the catcher is in the vicinity of the plate, and he/she has the right to be there (not blocking the plate), AND the ball arrives just before/after or at the same time as the runner, it shouldn't matter if it's catchable. We're trying to protect PEOPLE, and as long as the catcher and runner have the right to be where they are, we should apply the rule so everyone stays safe.

HOWEVER, if that's not the intent of the rule, and we want to be clear that the rule only applies when there is a catchable ball, that's fine. Please just adjust the rule so it's clear.

latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:51 pm

blouderback wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:40 pm
IMHO, the fact that the ball must be catchable is moot. If the catcher is in the vicinity of the plate, and he/she has the right to be there (not blocking the plate), AND the ball arrives just before/after or at the same time as the runner, it shouldn't matter if it's catchable. We're trying to protect PEOPLE, and as long as the catcher and runner have the right to be where they are, we should apply the rule so everyone stays safe.

HOWEVER, if that's not the intent of the rule, and we want to be clear that the rule only applies when there is a catchable ball, that's fine. Please just adjust the rule so it's clear.
This is the last time I'll say this part. The term catchable is for exxagerated cases. Waaaaay too much emphasis placed on catchable...as an umpire I can give two less craps if the runner, ball, catcher or the entire team is at the plate at the same time. Slide or surrender. However, if runner and catcher are in their respective places and the ball has been launched to NJ sailing way over the play there is no call.

Bob, you JUST explained the rule PERFECTLY. You get it. It's over. ONLY if though, the ball has been launched out of the playing field or way up the line there is no call and you already agreed to this.

Seriously, we are on the same page with way too much emphasis being placed on catchable. Adding the word catchable to the rule will bring out morons who look to get an out based on their interpretation on whether the catcher can catch or not. This simply cannot happen. We simply cannot do that to the rule.

Jesus, for the last time catchable was only mentioned for the folks that will try and get the cheap outs for a ball nowhere near the play. The wording including vicinity put it to bed.

If you apply the rule EXACTLY as you just stated, YOU GET IT. That's the way it will be called by ALL umpires.
Last edited by latincontrol on Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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blouderback
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by blouderback » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:52 pm

OK.

latincontrol
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by latincontrol » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:58 pm

And I personally am making my adjustments when making the call. I have NOT made the call based on how the rule is written. I stand corrected and it will be called accordingly, no questions asked. That's my commitment to the league and players concerned with the inconsistency. That part I get and it's fixed.

MixedNutz610
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Re: FIX THIS RULE! (please)

Post by MixedNutz610 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:03 pm

So wait I’m confused the ball doesn’t have to be caught? What if the wind blows the ball as I throw it and Dennis wants the games cancalled due to high winds? My good god this has been drawn out lol

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